What was the worst writing advice you ever received? Is there any such animal as “bad writing advice”? Not according to novelist and screenwriter Chuck Wendig. "There's only advice that works for you and advice that doesn't."
Is that true? Sometimes it seems, as writers, we can get so caught up in “the rules” that we forget the story and how to tell it. We become frustrated, and it can be downright maddening to try to remember every piece of advice from every writing source we’ve ever come across and tried to use properly.
No. It's not an Amish Romance...
Translating our ideas into language is one way of looking at our writing process, but how do we start? I have to admit, I am truly a ‘pantser’, not a ‘plotter’—which is really out of character for me in every other aspect of my life. But somehow, orchestrating everything to an outline and strictly adhering to that brings out the rebel in me. I just can’t do it—and I’ve tried. Here’s an example of the differences from Richard Nordquist’s “About.com” publication on writing:
In his essay "Getting Started," John Irving writes, "Here is a useful rule for beginning: Know the story--as much of the story as you can possibly know, if not the whole story--before you commit yourself to the first paragraph." Irving has written far more novels than I. Clearly he knows what works for himself in a way that I don't always for myself, but this seems to me terrible advice. I'm more inclined to E.L. Doctorow's wisdom. He once wrote that writing . . . is like driving at night: You don't need to see the whole road, just the bit of illuminated blacktop before you.
(Debra Spark, "The Trigger: What Gives Rise to the Story?" Creating Fiction, edited by Julie Checkoway. Writer's Digest Books, 1999)
Yes. That’s what I do. I don’t always see the entire big picture, and I don’t need to from the very beginning. But I do see more than “just the bit of illuminated blacktop”—in other words, the immediate “coming up next” section of the story. So I guess I’m in category #3—Swiss cheese author—I know the basics of what’s going to happen, but even so, there are a LOT of little (and big!) surprise along the way.
Nope. Neither is this one...
Aside from being on one side of the “plotter/pantser” fence and being told you’re wrong by the other side, what is the worst writing advice you’ve ever had? You don’t have to say who gave it to you—but I’m curious…what was it? And do you agree with the idea that there is no bad writing advice, just “advice that works for you and advice that doesn’t”? Bring on the comments and opinions! The worst writing advice I ever received? “Try to write an Amish romance. That’s what’s “hot” now…” (from an agent). What’s yours?
www.prairierosepublications.com
I'm telling you, there ID such a thing as lousy writing advice, and I am living proof. When I was young (yes, Virginia, there was such a time) I wrote what I thought was a pretty decent YA ms. I was proud of it but did not know where to go with it so contacted a NY agent. Because, after all, NY agents know everything. This person, whose initials are Ann B. Elmo, looked at my meager offering and wrote back saying, in essence, to forget about writing because I simply did not have what it takes. I was devastated. And did give up writing. Three years later I found that ms in a desk drawer, pulled it out and read it again. I liked it. Sent it off to a tiny publishing house. They bought it, paid $500 which I thought was the most money in the world. That little book, DUSTER, was a Spur finalist that year and has seldom been out of print since. Really lousy writing advice, I say.
ReplyDeleteI loved the 'swiss cheese' comment. I can relate.
ReplyDeleteThe worst advice I received was...I can't think of any. I just write and then rewrite and try to tell the basic story I have in my head. I know I will never get it right, but with support and a drive to write I can get the words on the page and tell the story.
Thank you for giving me some food for thought. I think I may have just learned something...just haven't found the words for it yet. (Smile) Doris
LOL Frank, you crack me up. I agree with you, btw, there IS such a thing as lousy writing advice! It's amazing to think that for all these years, what our entire world reads has been controlled by a meager handful of agents and editors, who choose for everyone else what is a "good book" and what "will sell." How do they know what will sell if it's not ever given a chance?
ReplyDeleteI loved Duster, and we are so thrilled to have it at Painted Pony Books. I'm glad you didn't take that bad advice!
Cheryl
Doris, I'm glad you came by today. I bet eventually you'll come up with a piece of bad writing advice that was given to you at some point. LOL If nothing else, all the conflicting rules of simply TELLING your story are enough to drive a sane person crazy...
ReplyDeleteOh, goodie--now I've given you more to think about! LOL I love it when that happens.
Cheryl
This isn't bad advice, can't think of any, but good advice. DON'T spell out dialogue like it sounds. (I remember the students reading Huck Finn and complaining about the spellings in the dialogue.) Just start out with a mention of his Scottish burr or Western drawl.
ReplyDeleteGreat post, Cheryl,
I loved this post! I'm sure there is a ton of bad writing advice. Just not far enough into my writing adventure to have gotten any yet! I'm going to have to go look up Duster, though. That sounds like a great book! Thanks for the wonderful posts, Cheryl!
ReplyDeleteThe worst advice I gotten time after time is simply gobs of rigid rules that some folks think are inviolate. Especially those prescribing formulas.
ReplyDeleteThe worst advice I've gotten is to write what the market wants. Alpha males are huge, so write one. BDSM is big, so write that. M/M is selling, so write that. After all, you want to make money, right?
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, I don't even like to read about alpha heroes, and in essence, you're telling me I should invite one to live in my head for the duration of creating a book about him? No thank-you. And I know nothing about the world of BDSM, and I refuse to try to imagine what it's like, which would be an insult to those who are actually involved with it. Ditto gay romance...I love my gay cousin, but I don't know or care to know what he does with his partners.
I've continued to muddle along, writing the stories of the characters who present themselves to my imagination. I have to like my characters to let them live in me and through me, as I commit their stories to words. No, I'm not making much money...but I'm telling the stories that I like to read. I'm just hoping I'm not the only one who likes to read them!
Sometimes advice is not "bad" but just does not apply to a particular writer and their style, subject, etc. I found that university training can be a blessing and a curse. I got wonderful feedback from profs and fellow students for the most part (BA in Lit at Marylhurst, OR; MFA in Fiction at Queens of Charlotte, NC) HOWEVER what made it so valuable was an ability to weigh the advice.
ReplyDeleteOne of my first profs told me to consider the advice carefully; did it resonate with me as a writer. That didn't mean the advice was always welcome -- sometimes the best advice was advice I didn't want to hear. But with some practice I got fairly good at knowing what to reject as not applicable and what to accept as necessary and useful.
Without developing that particular skill I could not have honed my book WRANGLE which I published this year -- and as I read through the pages I can see the places where the skill was critical.
Cheryl,
ReplyDeleteYou hit a nerve, look at all the comments! And Frank Roderus wrote more than I've ever seen him comment!
All the books in the world about writing aren't going to make anyone a writer, you have to sit down and do it.
I know, editing is for another place, but without a careful cautious edit of all that writing, the mistakes that remain will haunt the published piece forever!
Good post! (I bet more comments are coming).
Charlie
I think the biggest problem is when the 'advice' becomes 'rules.' I've gotten flack from other writers because I write with multiple POVs. (Btw, my readers love that I do that!) In particular, I've been dinged a lot for "head-hopping" during romantic encounters (both conversations and, ahem, other kinds of communication).
ReplyDeleteRecently I read a JD Robb (Nora Roberts) mystery and realized that she jumps back and forth between the two main characters' POVs quite often, even in the same scene!
But I will say that I'm glad I got that feedback, because now I am more careful not to have POV changes unless it's really necessary.
Bad advice? You bet. I was told by former agent to put my historical series aside because Scottish was dead and not selling. The books sold (without her aid) and went on to make me a LOT of money, and have been in print for six years, and translated into German, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, and Japanese. Had I listened I would be much poorer for it.
ReplyDeleteHarlequin sent me a rejection for the first in the historical series (a year after the book had been in print at Kensington). They told me while they liked what I wrote the book needed too many changes so I should just dump it and start over. I sent them a copy of the book and said oops sorry...mwhahaha.
My friend, Dawn Thompson had a book rejected by an editor at Kensington as "Werewolves in Regency England will never sell." First off, it was a shifter, not a werewolf, and secondly, immediately there, after several super hot series came out with -- you guessed it - werewolves in Regency England. That book sold, was her best selling book, in print over seven years, and translated in a dozen languages.
You will get a lot of good advice and a lot of really bad advice. Be true to your work, listen to good advice, and learn to recognize what is bad and dismiss it.
Tanya, I remember what a time I had with Gone With the Wind. I read it when I was 12, and it was hard to understand, at that age, what some of the dialogue was trying to convey through the dialectical spelling MM used. I do sometimes leave of the "g" on some of my words when I write--but I try not to do too much dialect. It makes it tough to follow.
ReplyDeleteCheryl
Sally, so glad you came by today! Well, believe me, you WILL hear some bad advice at some point, I bet. LOL
ReplyDeleteYes, Duster is a fantastic coming-of-age book. I can't believe anyone would reject it...oh, wait a minute. We're talking NEW YORK. Yep, I can believe it. LOL
Cheryl
Gordo, I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY. Then there's that saying, "Rules are made to be broken." Right? LOL
ReplyDeleteI think of Stephen King and how he did things his own way. What a groundbreaker he was!
Cheryl
Fiona, you are a girl after my own heart! I'm so glad you stopped by today and mentioned that "write for the market" crap that is so often spouted. (See my "write and Amish romance" comments.) BTW, I'm not saying a bad word about Amish romance, because a lot of people write them and read them. I tried to write one, but I did not have it in me. "A man's (or woman's) got to know her limitations."
ReplyDeleteI truly do admire people who can write in some of these genres that I would have no clue in. Mystery is another one that eludes me.
So, maybe this advice is one piece that's good for some and not for others, since if I had been ABLE to write an Amish romance I might have done well with it.
But you really hit the nail on the head. You have to be head over heels passionate about your story or no one else will be. So writing for the market is out for me. I have to write what I'm passionate about.
Thanks for coming by and pitching in your 2 cents' worth, Fiona!
Cheryl
Jonnie, that is something I hadn't thought about. It's kind of like being a parent. When you have your first child everyone wants to tell you what to do and what not to do. But each child is different. Same way with writers and their stories. So it's up to the writer to decide which advice is useful to them and which isn't.
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad you stopped by today and brought this point up. Hadn't really thought of it that way.
Cheryl
Charlie, I am thrilled to see such discussion on the blog about this topic. You're right, it did hit a nerve, and with good reason. There probably aren't very many writers who've been at it a while that haven't gone to a conference or class or worked with SOMEONE that gave them some advice that just didn't work for them.
ReplyDeleteOutlining is the bane of my existence. But I DO manage a kind of outline--a timeline for events--and that happens after the book is well on its way, not at the very beginning. But I know other people who would HATE the way I do things, as much as I cringe to think of outlining in detail.
So glad you came by. And editing is one of those things that truly can haunt the story forever. You're so right about that
Cheryl
Kassandra, I love that you write in multiple points of view. I remember in the 80's and before when no one gave that a second thought. Suddenly, it became a rule NOT to do. But before that happened, a lot of people wrote that way and readers didn't think a thing of it.
ReplyDeleteI actually enjoy that style, even now. I have a huge book, my first one I ever wrote, that is completely written that way. I've been thinking about getting it out there, but I would have to re-write it to follow the "rules"--it gives me hope when you talk about writing in different POVs and having it embraced--I thought I was alone! LOL
So glad you stopped by today!
Cheryl
I've had that old saw "never write in first person" and also the "no multiple POV books" as well - however, since some of my favorite authors do both, I decided to ignore the advice and just write what feels right.
ReplyDeleteI love that you "struck a nerve" with this conversation - it's great seeing how other writers deal with the process of writing, and what sort of "bad" advice they've all had!
www.jeshays.com
DEBORAH! It's so good to see you here!
ReplyDeleteI love these stories of yours and the happy endings in the publishing world. I laughed when I read the one about you sending Harlequin the published book from Kensington.
Why do people do the things they do? I can't for the life of me understand why the publishing world needs to be so discouraging and dog-eat-dog. There are many different tastes for reading in the world!
"Be true to your work, listen to good advice, and learn to recognize what is bad and dismiss it."-- This is great advice from a wonderful writer--YOU. You're always so encouraging of others.
Thanks for coming by, Deborah. I appreciate your comment!
Cheryl
JES, it's been wonderful to see what everyone has to say.
ReplyDeleteSome books just have to be written in first person. The one that always comes to mind first for me is To Kill a Mockingbird. how could that story have been told ANY other way?
Thanks so much for coming by today and commenting.
Cheryl
The worst advice, or the advice I most resented, was from the editor of the short-lived ISAAC ASIMOV SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE. Penned on the rejection card was, "You ought to go into another line of work." Wonder whatever happened to them, after that fabulous job folded. Eaten by robots, I hope.
ReplyDeleteHenry, I had to laugh. I had a rejection letter I kept and still have to this day from a pompous young representative of one of the agents I submitted to. Here's what it said: "We are not sufficiently enthusiastic to offer representation at this time." Well, a few years later I ran across her name again. No, she was not with that particular agency anymore, she was out trying to write her OWN novels. I read an excerpt from one of them and guess what? I wasn't "sufficiently enthusiastic about her work" to buy it, and evidently that was the case with most people.
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping in and sharing. Robots, UNITE!
Cheryl
I hate literary fiction classes.
ReplyDeleteI hate contests. In 1979, I entered one that aimed to find the next Louis L'Amour. I didn't win. Ergo, I could not write fiction (I was a prize-winning copywriter at the time). MS into bottom drawer until 2000. Re-read. Put on market. Sold, published in 2005.
I hate agents. One who shall remain nameless came down on a MS I submitted to her with a vengeance. It later won the Global Ebook Prize for Western Fiction. I'm not a forgiving person. I don't like to get close to that agent, even today.
All of the above are probably reasons I never get out of the backwaters.
Charlie
I can't recall getting any bad advice, but sometimes technical terms make me crazy like archetypes instead of standard character types.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I admit it; I'm a plotter.I outline the whole story beginning to end before I start writing. Sometimes I have to change a few things when I see my first idea just doesn't work or I have a sudden epiphany. There's wiggle room. I need an outline to keep me from wondering off the trail into no man's land.
Good blog. I'm reading the comments, too, which are very interesting.
Charlie, I love literary fiction classes, both learning and teaching them. I don't love agents. And I'm not crazy about contests. But I know you and I are not alone in these "mighty dislikes" on some of these things. There are many horror stories out there, witness some of the ones people have shared here!
ReplyDeleteIt's mind boggling to sit back and think of how so few people have controlled what we've been able to read for so many years--based on their personal likes and dislikes, or on what they perceive people will buy. Now that would be a wonderful basis for a sci-fi story! The effects this has had on our society.
Cheryl
Sarah, I admire anyone who can plot to such detail and then carry it out. I've tried...just can't do it. Even if I leave wiggle room, that makes me frustrated, because I tend to think, why did I start an outline in the first place? LOL My problem is, I have a LOT of epiphanies. I'm so glad you came by today and commented!
ReplyDeleteCheryl
Hands down, my worst advice was to outline the story and paste scenes on the wall of my hallway before actually starting the book. Crazy! On the wall the story felt stilted, with huge gaps. I spent long hours battling the war my right and left lobes were fighting over creative control. The other worst advice was from an engineer technical writer, who advised beginning writers to paint their work area in a neutral color so as not to distract them. I did this and suffered progressive misery until one morning I couldn't open the door to my writing room. I went out and bought some geranium paint and painted my bookshelves geranium. No advice is for everyone. Know thyself.
ReplyDeleteMy experience with literary fiction people is that they are quick to identify "literary" and mighty slow to publish, or they have published only in "literary" magazines that are read only by "literary" writers. In lit classes at college, I forever quarreled with teachers who tried to find hidden meanings in stories. My stance was, "The author wanted to tell a good entertaining story." (Sorry, Cheryl) That said, I still take literary fiction classes. I just hate them. Haibun class coming up at the end of the month.
ReplyDeleteOh, Anne. I've heard of that one before. I bought a book one time that suggested making note cards and stringing twine across the room and clipping the note cards on the twine in order...blither blither. When I read that, I laughed out loud. I had a mental picture of myself hanging out clothes as a kid and how I hated it. I knew right then, that's what it would remind me of and I wouldn't be able to do it.
ReplyDeletePaint color? My walls are two different colors right now. I keep saying I want to just start over and paint the room yet another color, but finish the job this time. LOL I bet your geranium paint is just gorgeous! And it reminds you every day to be daring! and be yourself!
I'm glad you came by! It's good to see you here.
Cheryl
LOL Charlie, you crack me up. You know, I think that's why most high school students hate English--it's during that time period when all the textbooks are trying to teach foreshadowing and looking for symbolism in every durn thing that's written. Maybe it's just not there. Or maybe we should just let people read the story and enjoy it for what it is, as you say. There is plenty of time to look for these hidden meanings later on, when we have a bit of life experience behind us to help us understand what we're looking for, right?
ReplyDeleteCharlie, two of my funniest memories of high school English classes are when the teachers tried to talk about two classics of literature without talking about the thing that was crucial to each story. If you live in Oklahoma, you will read The Grapes of Wrath about 20 times (not really but it feels like it) before you graduate from college (if you go to high school and college here). Anyhow, we read it in high school when I was a sophomore, or junior, can't remember. But when we got to the end of the book where Rose of Sharon keeps the old man from starving by giving him her breast milk...OH NO. Our teacher reinvented the ending of the book and stopped it as they were walking into the barn! LOLLOL How could we discuss the true ending at that age? Can you imagine the snickers and snide comments from a class of teenage boys? The other one was when we read Hemingway's short story, "Hills Like White Elephants"--which is a couple talking all around an impending abortion. We read the story. No one "got it"--what young teenager would? Then the teacher asks, "What do you think they're talking about?" I can't remember the answers now, but I'm sure they must have been hysterical to her, and none of us had a clue. When I read it in college, then I understood.
ReplyDeleteCheryl
Write an AMISH romance?? OH MY!!!! just because it's a fad doesn't mean it will be strong by the time you finish. Good grief.
ReplyDeleteThe worst (and best) advice I got was "put it in a drawer and write something else." I did write something else - snapped up by big NY publisher, but my agent is still behind the drawer mss. LOL - always look behind the advice and consider the source.
Wow, Meg, that was a mixed bag of advice, but it sure worked out for you! Big congratulations!
ReplyDeleteI agree, we DO need to consider the source, but a few years back I think that was harder because of the god-like power that agents held over the lowly authors. The times, they are a-changin'!
Cheryl
The worst writing advice I ever experienced was not directed at me, but at a friend who, sadly, never wrote again. She was an African-American lady who participated in a writers' workshop with a well known academic "creative" in charge. She wrote beautiful beat-style poetry based on her childhood in the deep south, using some occasional black dialect. The bozo-in-charge told her to "just stop," and "go back and get an education in grammar, in spelling etc...then come back to your poetry and break the rules."
ReplyDeleteBah.
We all stuck up for her, tried to dissuade her from listening to this jerk, but she believed in him and laid down her pen.
Oh, I have any number of bad names I can call that fella.
That's so sad, Richard. People "in charge" just don't realize the kind of impact they have on those who are just trying to start learning. When people need encouragement the most, and someone like this just tears them down to nothing, they never forget it. So many times, it's just a matter of giving an encouraging word of praise along with the criticism that makes a person WANT to grasp it, and do better, rather than give up. I will never understand people like that, but Mom always said, "Putting out someone else's candle doesn't make yours burn brighter," and that is soooo true so often. And there's nothing that can undo that kind of discouragement, especially in the eyes and heart of someone who had admired that person so much that they came to them to LEARN.
ReplyDeleteCheryl
Wow. It's hard to separate the bad advice from the good advice sometimes. I think it's important to learn the craft but not forget the art. Use the craft but don't squarsh your voice.
ReplyDeleteI'm not at all confident in my own writing and have persevered even though some find my humor juvenile and stupid. I had to come to terms with my own self--I'll never be happy writing the stories others do even though I enjoy reading their books.
The worst advice I've ever received (other than write to the market, which has brought success to several of my friends, so not at all bad advice for them) is to revise, revise, revise. I rarely revise-if something doesn't work, I write a new, completely different scene. My first draft, after a typo check, is what goes to the editor because revising totally throws off my rhythm. Maybe that will change, but for now, that's the way I work.
The best advice came from a NY executive editor, who told me to quit listening to everyone and trust my talent. She practically tore a manuscript out of my hands, telling me she did not want to see a second draft. But then... sigh... she told me to write a Regency romance for her. "Take your cowboys to London," she said. I told her that would have to be a time-travel, since the Regency genre ends in about 1820.
More than one person has said outlines are a good thing. Since I've never liked them, I don't do them. They seem to take the enjoyment out of my writing.
ReplyDeleteMorgan Mandel
Jacquie, I don't do revisions either. I pretty much know where I'm going as I'm writing, because I actually DO stop and think (yes, even though I don't outline it all to begin with!)LOL I agree that you should trust your talent, because you have a lot of it. Your stories ALWAYS entertain. I don't really like taking my cowboys out of their element, but I will be doing just that when I write the sequel to Time Plains Drifter--it will be a time travel, to the future, for Rafe's brother, Cris.
ReplyDeleteIt's really hard to trust yourself and write what's in your heart when there are so many naysayers out there.
Cheryl
Oh, I agree, Morgan! They do for me, too! I heard about how great they were, how you couldn't write without one, etc. But that's not true! LOL Glad we discovered that.
ReplyDeleteThanks for coming by my friend.
Cheryl